In today's episode, I finish the interview with Christopher Schmitt.
In today's episode, I finish the interview with Christopher Schmitt, author of the CSS Cookbook and part owner of Environments for Humans. Click here to listen to part one of the interview.
Today's episode doesn't have a specific sponsor. Instead, head over to spec.fm and check out the other shows on the network!
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Hey, everyone, and welcome to Developer Tea. My name is Jonathan Cottrell, and in today's episode, I continue my interview with Christopher Schmidt. If you don't know who Christopher is, I suggest you go back and listen to the first part of the interview with Christopher. I will include a link to that in the show notes, which you can find at spec.fm. We don't have a sponsor for today, but Chris asked for me to share with you a call for speakers. It is the JavaScript Summit 2016. It's a remote conference. Chris is the head, or one of two heads, of Environments for Humans, and they are putting on the JavaScript Summit. So go and check it out. It will be in the show notes, and you can submit your talk to speak at the JavaScript Summit of 2016. Now let's jump straight into the interview with Christopher Schmidt. Chris, welcome back to the show. I am so ready to get started talking with you. But first, I want to recap with you what we talked about on the last episode. What did we talk about on the last episode, Chris? We talked about my history, starting out with web design. We talked about writing books for web design, a little bit, and then conferences for web design. Yeah, yeah. We talked about, specifically, we ended up talking about the stories from CSS DevConf. I was actually at CSS. I was at CSS DevConf, and I spoke about level four selectors there, and it was such a great conference to be a part of. Well, you asked me what a great story I have from DevConf. What's a great story that you have? That I had? Well, first of all, I very much enjoyed the conference overall. I thought it was a very well put on conference. The octopus was incredible. I can't say that's my favorite story. I mean, I guess I could. But I don't know that that's a valid favorite. I really did appreciate the same things you appreciated, specifically the double blind yielding, the audience that it yielded. That was telling of the industry and also of that process. For clarification, and we won't spend, I don't have the numbers in front of me. Chris, maybe you have some of these numbers available, but it was a pretty decent split in terms of diversity. There were people from all walks and all types of industrial jobs. So people who are building products, people who are in the agency world, people who use CSS solely for art, the discussion on fractals, for example. That was a great one. Honestly, one of the most memorable parts of the conference for me, my wife and I, we slept on the boat and the walls were as thin as a piece of paper. It was a really good experience. I am not kidding you. We heard everything that the people next door. In fact, one morning, somebody had a TV on and I guess they sleep with their TV on regularly, which, you know, that's fine. But the problem was that they had on, it was like a TV evangelist. And so they were just yelling through the TV the whole time. And my wife and I are laying in bed, like trying to sleep at four o'clock. And I'm like, oh, I'm going to sleep in the morning. And the people next door, obviously, you know, they don't know that we're awake and waiting for them to turn things down or anything. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's because the Queen Mary was a, because everyone doesn't know, it was a steam liner. And it was like the biggest one when it was built. It was one of the fastest ones, too. And it had massive, massive, massive engines. And, you know, almost everyone was just standing still. There was just something going on. And because it would make this noise, it would make this noise. And it was like, oh, my God. And it would make this noise. It would kind of reverberate and reverberate through the whole ship. And so that you couldn't hear, like, if the engine was still on, you wouldn't be able to hear what your neighbor was doing. But because the engines were, they're actually removed because it's technically the Queen Mary is no longer a ship. It's technically a hotel because it's permanently docked, is that all the walls, you can just hear it. And I didn't think it was going to be that much of an issue, but we kind of caught it. You know, during the conference was that, yes, you could go to the front desk and ask for your plugs. Oh, OK. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Sorry if you didn't get that message out. But yeah, that's that's kind of a big issue with that. Yeah. Well, and to clarify, I wouldn't have changed the venue for anything. It was a fantastic venue. Well worth the the thin wall incidents. Quite honestly, like I said, it actually created a really good memory for us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of, I guess, more serious memories or something, I really actually very much enjoyed the show and tell. And Chris Coyier put this on and it was upstairs on the top deck and it was like in a space that's normally a restaurant. But he stood or I guess he probably sat most of the time at the front of the room and anybody in the community could come up and show something they had done. And typically, you know, people are showing code pens, which just happened to be a pretty good segue. way for Chris anyway. But no, I mean, people were coming up and showing random tools. Some people had even created little demos, like constructed demos that had a timeline that were intended specifically for the show and tell. And it was really cool because these are people, once again, saying like, hey, you know, I didn't get selected as a speaker, but I'm going to step in front of people and show off the stuff that I'm doing. What we talked about earlier was that the knowledge base of the audience is bigger than just one person on stage. And so we really wanted to tap into and say, let's share what we know as the audience can get up there and talk. And so, yeah, it was really awesome that Chris was able to do that and step in. And so that's a new wrinkle we put into DevConf this year. Because, during that time, we have what's the best of. And so what happens is that, so there's voting to get into as a speaker to DevConf. And then there's voting during the conference itself where we actually vote on the session. And so whichever one, you know, there's like, I think top six gets voted on best of and those six get repeated. So in case you missed it or you're a different session or whatnot, because you always have that multi-track conference, right? Where you always say like, oh, I wish I was in that session because it sounded really cool. You get that fear of missing out. And so, yeah, it's really cool. And so, yeah, I think that's a really cool thing. And so this is a great way of coming back and seeing that. But for those people who may have actually seen those conversations, you know, we worked with Chris Coyier and said, okay, what would be great? And he actually does those show and tells with CodePen at meetups. And so it's just a really great way. So if you actually do a meetup or if you want to meet up in your town, I think just having a show and tell, you know, a monthly or weekly show and tell is great. And so, you know, I was, I feel like fear of missing out. I feel like I missed, I feel like I missed out. For those, for those parts. I feel like I heard great things about it. And Chris Coyier actually has a write-up on CodePen about them. And a blog post up there. But yeah, I heard nothing but great things about it. He and Dave actually talked about, they did a CSS DevConf like wrap-up episode on Shop Talk. And he meant, I believe he mentioned quite a few things that happened during the show and tell. But yeah, it was, it was, and that was a very enjoyable part of the conference for sure. But I, I think it's hard for me to point to a specific moment that I, you know, I would say that stands out really just being at a conference with those people, you know, I'd met Chris and I met Dave and those are people that feel very distant from me, right? If, when I'm sitting at home here in Tennessee and, you know, I don't really encounter a lot of those kinds of people in my day-to-day life, they're writing blog posts or they're, you know, publishing, podcasts that are shaping the way that I do my work in a lot of ways, right? Or they're helping shape the way a lot of people think about the stuff that we use every day. And to, to actually be in a room with them and hear what they have to say and them actually listen to what I have to say, that's, that's a unique experience. I would definitely recommend going to a conference if you can't tell. But I do, I do want to mention one thing. Like, I mean, I do it in case anyone's wondering, I do it in case anyone's wondering, I do it in case anyone's wondering, I do it in case anyone's wondering what the octopus thing was. It was actually an 80 foot long balloon octopus. It was massive, massive. That we hung from a ceiling of this room, which is the room which happened to be, Bob Hope actually presented or performed. We're on a ship and we thought like, hey, we're in ship, we should have a yacht rock concert. So we got a yacht rock band to come in and play. And so I think someone actually said that they were surprised that it wasn't, you know, karaoke. They actually thought it was like, they were surprised it was actually a real band. Yeah. So before, before the 80 foot balloon octopus became even like, you know, an idea, we asked the hotel staff and like, can we bring in fog machines or a bubble machine to go with the concert? Right. And they were saying no, because it's a historical building. We can't damage the wood because it's the Queen Mary is a art deco museum that floats. Pretty much. Yeah. And it's like, no, there's a vintage art deco and actually have art deco conference every year. And so I was like, well, if you can't, if I can't do that, I'm gonna go get balloons. And so it building LA, which is like Long Beach, California. I knew that someone specialized in balloons for parties and events. And so there's this elite balloon design with giving a shout out. And I said like, hey, I need nautical themed balloons. And like, well, we can do an octopus and have it hang. I was like. Yes. That's that's exactly what we need. And so they actually came down when we're like, we're based in Austin, Texas. They took a trip to the Queen Mary on their own, talked to talk to the staff there, figured out a way to make it work. And so we actually had to hire a lift to actually go up and this is a lift and actually install it up there on top of the. Wow. So we got done like one minute before we opened. Yeah. That's great. So you mentioned briefly the idea of having these these meetups, you know, the Chris host his his show and tell in a regular meetup, I think, I guess, in Austin, but also they have them in other locations. They have this these code pin meetups where people get around, they gather around a computer and they show off their code pens. And, you know, I'm wondering, because you have so much experience with with conferences, and you're a big fan of the Yeah, I'm a big fan of the The The The The The The The The The The The The The Camp Camp Camp Camp Maybe some of the biases that they need to be aware of. I mentioned earlier, I don't want to offend people, but there are biases that I know that I have, but I don't know what they are. What are some things that they should keep in mind if they go about creating a community like this? Well, you mentioned biases, but the Rights for Humans started out of conversations I had with my partner, Ari Stiles. She sort of for South by Southwest. And as part of her job, she would go out to other conferences and see what they were doing. And then as a speaker, I go to other conferences, including South by and all that stuff. And then I would see how the conferences were put on. And so I had this bucket list item of like, I will actually put on a conference before I die type of thing. And so I met Ari and we had a lot of ideas of what kind of the perfect, conference would be. And so we just like, I'll just do it. And actually, no, I didn't just do it. I guess I could have done it, but I was actually a board member for AIGA Cincinnati. AIGA is a graphic design professional network. And so back then, I'm not sure where they are right now, but they're just a great bunch of people. I love that board. And I never felt bad going to an AIGA board meeting at Cincinnati. And it's a great bunch of people. But it's really known for print because Procter and Gamble, which owns so many companies that you know about, they do a lot of print design and do outsourcing for video and stuff like that. So web stuff back then, before the iPhone really hit its stride, was really for Flash. It wasn't really for standards or whatnot. And so I really wanted to talk to them about like, let's just do a web conference for designers because there's not much here. It took me a year because I looked through my email. I think it took me a year to convince them. I think it took me a year to convince them that, yeah, we should do that. And they gave me the green light to go ahead. And so we put together what became InControl. And it was a one-track conference with keynotes, two-day one-track keynotes at the end of the day with these great speakers. And I just called in a lot of my colleagues and friends, favors. I'm like, we're just trying this new thing. It'll be awesome. And the venue space is always tricky. Probably the trickiest part. Nailed down the date. And I'm not going to lie. It's a lot of work. A lot of logistical planning. A lot of rolling with the punches. I think running a conference is sort of like being a really good manager in the sense that I think the biggest lesson I learned from when I went to grad school and got project management certification was that it really doesn't matter what happens for a manager on a project. It's just that you have to take ownership and realize that this will... It's just that you have to take ownership and realize that this will happen. And we were going to actually make it work. If you don't have that mentality, then most projects are just going to fail. So if you have that mentality with your projects, then the success rates are going to go through the roof. And so we did a survey like you do at the end of a conference and everyone loved it. It was the biggest fundraiser at the time for AIGA Cincinnati. What a success story. Yeah. And I also keynoted my own thing, which is like total stress-o-rama too when you're on top of that. And people actually liked it. Mm-hmm. Which is crazy. Which is crazy good. Because I usually do more codey, techy type stuff. I'm really not great at inspirational. So you asked me, like, CRISPR was a short version of the Internet of Story. I gave you a long version. The short story would be, find the big names in your community, like the big agencies or tech, and just ask them if you could use their space for an hour or two. That's a quick, easy way to win space. Coworking is a lot more popular than it was five, seven years ago. Sure. So you may be able to find space that you might be able to use as a meeting space. That's kind of cheap wins there. Outside of that, it gets kind of pricey. You might be able to find a – Austin is kind of notorious for bars. So we have, like, a lot of bars. And so we have meetups off of 6th Street, which is – there's actually a bar with a second floor called Buffalo Billiards, which they meet in the – I'm not really sure what the – I couldn't speak for them. But you might be able to find a bar that's open. It has a lot of space or a restaurant and has, like, maybe a room where you can meet. And if they just donate the room for you for a period of time, as long as someone, like, you know, buys coffee and lunch, you know, while you're there. That's what they care about. Yeah. So, you know, I was in a meetup when I lived in Ohio, and I met Ben Callahan at – actually, I met Ben earlier. But I met – one of the times I first met Ben Callahan from Sparkbox was in a Panera bread for a web meetup. And I was presenting. I was presenting on CSS positioning. So, you know, it doesn't really matter where, as long as people agree to come and talk about that. And we talked about show and tell, like Chris Quirter did at CSS DevConf. And I would just do a show and tell and just make it like a potluck. Like, hey, bring something that you're interested and passionate about and just do a quick show and tell about that. And one of the most stressful things in life, you know, like there's moving, there's, you know, getting a new job or whatever. But, you know, one of the most stressful things is getting on a plane. You're on stage and speaking in front of people. So, but by saying like show and tell, like it's a really great way for people to realize that they don't have to plan to speak a lot, like for a long time. It's like a 45 minute or half hour. They can just show you what they're working on and that's it. And then answering your questions. And so it's not like, you know, it shouldn't be a big time commitment. Yeah, they aren't having to prepare slides necessarily or whatever. They're just kind of coming up and saying, hey, this is what I've been doing. This is what I'm interested in. Yeah, and they agree. They have Q&A. You learn so much back and forth. I actually have a friend who is starting a conference. So this is partially a question that he was asking for me to kind of pitch up to you as well. But this is all really interesting stuff because there's, I mean, the theme of what you're saying is just come up with ideas for people to hang out and get value from it. Like there's no rules to the game necessarily. It's just, you know, what are ways that you can lower the stress on people? Who are coming, especially the presenters and increase the value for people who are coming to listen to those people. Yeah. I mean, and then there's, you know, there's like the show and tell model. And then, which I think is probably like the easiest way just to meet people. But there's also like, you know, we can build around themes or subject matters. Like Nick and Sandy here in Austin, they do the WordPress meetups here. And when I first met them, they were doing like maybe two or three a month. And now they're, I think they're doing like 16 million a month. No, but no. They're doing like so many a month now. But they actually listen to, they do a survey every year. They listen to what the survey says. And they have like, you know, a WordPress for beginners. They have a WordPress for, you know, for advanced people. They have WordPress for content. And, you know, Austin is, you know, has like one to two million people in it. So it's, you know, so they actually move WordPress meetups. They have different locations that they worked out with different spots around Austin. And so if you can't make one, hopefully, you know, because it's too far away, hopefully they'll get closer to you. You know, and location is a big part of that. So they definitely keep an eye out for that. So there's WordPress and there's like, you can do, if there's not a JavaScript one, I would probably start a JavaScript meetup in your area. That could be a little bit too broad. But, you know, there's CSS, there's a SaaS meetups out there. So, you know, whatever is really what your passion is. You know, if you're into UX, start a UX meetup. Whatever discipline or specialty. Yeah, that's great. We're going to take a quick sponsor break and then we'll come back and talk about some of what you've learned from the actual content in this year's conferences. I want to talk to you about maybe, you know, what you see is coming up in the future, what you think are emerging tools and that kind of stuff. But first, I want to take a break to ask the listeners to take a few minutes today and subscribe to Developer Tea, but also go and check out the other shows on Speck. Dot FM. Speck has a variety of awesome content with other providers, not just me, but other people. Design Details, for example. It's a design related podcast. There's a ton of awesome content on Speck. 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And of course, make sure you check out the other shows and the other content providers on the Speck network. Now let's get back into the interview with Chris. So we've been talking about meetups and cultivating communities, you know, creating situations that people can come and talk about the things they're interested in, whether that's user experience or some really specific technology. And Chris is kind of a expert on the subject. He runs Environments for Humans. And as a result of that... Chris, you've had an opportunity to not only be the organizer of these events, but you attend every single one, naturally. So you have the opportunity to be exposed to a lot of the newest, latest, greatest things that are happening in this industry. And so I'd love to ask you a few questions about the industry, the direction it's going and maybe what's happening. You know, we're nearing the end of 2015. You know, maybe what you see is happening in 2016. Okay, sure. So the first question is kind of the obvious one. What tools or technologies do you see as becoming more important or kind of the year of 2016 kind of focusing on these technologies? What do you see emerging as a result of, you know, being in these conference talks that you've been, you know, part of? We put on, at Environments for Humans, we put on events that we would like, I would like to go to. Sure. Like, we would like to go to, but we're usually so busy that we usually can't really grok what's going on a lot of the time. But yeah, so that's, and case in point is CSA DevConf because like, I love CSA DevConf and I wish I could, someone, I wish I could just hold, you know, just go to it one day and actually not worry about it. Because it sounds like a fun conference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it sounds like a fun conference. It is. I can tell you. I was there. One thing I noticed, like, for sure, like, SVG, I think we had, like, we had kind of a mini SVG track. Yeah. Yeah. Within CSA DevConf because we had Sarah Sweden there as keynote. And then we kind of, like, we did it on purpose a little bit. We actually had the SVG tracks sessions all lined up after each other. I was wondering if you did it on purpose or not. Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I feel like, you know, I think it's a good thing. I think it's called GreenSock. Mm-hmm. Yep. The GSAPI. I think. I didn't know about GreenSock until I was at CSA DevConf. And so it helps for animations for vector SVG and stuff like that. So I feel like that's SVG and that, you know, it's going to do great with that. In fact, we're actually doing an SVG summit on January 21st. Oh, great. Because it was just, like, so impactful. Like, oh, here is a true responsive image format. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does so much more than just, you know, line art icon. So we're actually going to probably do, like, an SVG in accessibility, deep dive with animations, and just see how far the rabbit hole goes with SVGs. So I was really impressed with that. It kind of blew my mind, you know, especially with typography and SVG being demonstrated there. Flexbox, I'm just, I think Flexbox is going to be, I'm not sure how many people are using Flexbox right now, but I feel like it's going to be a big hit. Yeah. It's going to probably be de facto pretty soon, especially after, you know, IE9 goes away and IE8 goes away. Support for Microsoft, you know, I think that's, this past week alone, like, there's a lot of people writing kind of nuanced articles about Flexbox and the mystery, you know, of like, you know, using Ed's child for stacking things with Flexbox and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. That's pretty good. And JavaScript, period. You know, if you don't know JavaScript, I've, you know, I've done a lot of stuff with it. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, this is the battle cry five years ago, you know, and it's like, just no JavaScript because I think, you know, Skynet is written in JavaScript. And with WordPress, I think, you know, it was just like, you know, I probably should have learned JavaScript more than what I do now five years ago. And I feel like by WordPress saying that, you know, they're making a huge shift and telling people to learn JavaScript deeply, I feel like that's just like, for me, I feel like that was like, you know, dong, like a big bell just went off and like, just need to know more about that. And, but personally, for me, as some guy who is more of a front-end person, just grunt and gulp, and just knowing those tools to help automate, you know, SVG export, you know, fallbacks, pinging, templating, just doing everything so you don't make mistakes. Mm-hmm. Just automating everything. I think if you're a web designer, front-end person, if you don't know that, just either own gulp or grunt, whichever one makes you happy. Sure. I use gulp, personally. Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoy gulp. Yeah. So whenever you flush your boat, I think you just need to have the automated and learn command line and be happy with it, which I don't think I will be, but I think it'll get there. Yeah. You know, it's funny because the people who listen to this podcast, we have all different kinds of people from all different backgrounds. In fact, I got an email from someone who is actually a banker, and they listen to this podcast. My guess is, you know, there are... There are plenty of developers who currently feel like they're behind listening to this episode. And you just heard somebody who's been in the industry for quite a long time, successfully, by the way. Chris is a successful person. He is not focused on learning the command line, like, right now. Right? Like, that's not his ultimate goal. In fact, he's been... He's been very successful having not known the command line. So... And I'm not saying that to say that you shouldn't learn the command line. Certainly, that's a tool that's probably useful to learn. But the point is that if you feel like you're behind, you're okay. I want that to be the overwhelming message on this show, that falling behind is very often, that is a fallacy. Yeah. I think with our industry being so... We talked about how fast it moves, you know, before. Yeah. It just... There's just so much. And that's like... One of the reasons why we do our events is so people can... You know, especially our remote conferences as well, is that so people don't have to take time to fly out, you know, or spend time away from friends or family. And they can just spend just one day, or if it's multi-annual, or two days or whatever, with a remote conference and just focus on JavaScript or SVG and get caught up with the industry. And so... And not feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so behind on that. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Well, so that kind of gives us an idea of tools in that landscape. The second part of that question is, you know, what do you think is going to change in terms of workplace culture? And especially for the young developer as they come into the industry, what do you see the industry moving towards culturally and supporting culturally? I don't think I can answer that honestly, per se. Okay. But... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh... In terms... Not because I... I'm not going to lie to you, but I just want to say I've been working for myself for almost 15 years now. So my culture is like, you know, I get to wear what I want. Yeah. You know, I can change a t-shirt. It's awesome. So I don't have a different thing. But, you know, from... You know, I've always said, like, if you can be that freelancer, I think the future is going to be a person who can brand themselves and be their own boss. I feel like that's happening a lot more where they can actually connect and interact. And not to say that's for everyone. That's not for everyone. It's, you know, it's very tough sometimes to be a freelancer out there. Mm-hmm. Um, but also, yeah, I feel like if you're not in a good or a positive work environment, I would, you know, and you know what you know, like, if you know JavaScript or you know tools and you're in demand, I would say, like, you know, look around. Yeah. And find a spot that you like. And, you know, and don't just, like, weave every, like, month or... Like, every year. Just, like, just stay there. And if you enjoy it, you know, just realize that you work at a place that is positive and reinforces what you do. And, you know, and just enjoy it. You know, life is short. And if you find a job that you're at and you're happy, kudos, man. Because, like, there's so many people who don't have that. That is so true. That's incredibly true. Yeah. That actually answers one of the questions that I like to ask all developers, which is, you know, what advice would you give? Every developer, if you just had 30 seconds, I would assume that that answers that pretty decently. Just the idea that, you know, enjoy what you have. And I think a lot of developers, they feel like just culturally, you know, this industry, there's a lot of turnover. And people like to jump between opportunities because they exist, probably. Right. Rather than, well, do I really actually want to leave this place? Right? Right. Like, if you... If you are enjoying your job, remember there is some canonical wisdom in understanding that the grass is always greener, right? You will always have opportunities, especially because, I think we mentioned it on the last part of the interview, but the demand in this industry is much higher than the supply currently. So you're going to have opportunities forever. But the... The opportunity that you have when you stay in one place, when you invest in the people that you are working with and you cultivate relationships that go a little bit further than, you know, one year or whatever, that is something that people in this industry, unfortunately, a lot of the time, they miss out on that. And so there's some value there. Now, obviously, everybody's different, right? But I'm that way. And I think... And you are that way, Chris. I think... I think some people are kind of pressured to move quickly and to move around a lot. And you don't have to do that. Back in, like, you know, last century and before that, you know, people would stay at their job for 20, 40 years or whatever and get a gold watch. You know, that's not going to happen anymore. I just feel like, you know, if you feel like it's time to move on, that's awesome. Like, listen to your heart and move on. But, you know, you don't have to jump around. You know, find that. But if you're happy with your work, you just realize, like, you know, don't stay there because I say so. But just, like, you know, just realize, like, hey, you're happy. And, you know, not many people can say that about their job. But if someone comes along with a better offer, hey, always listen. Yeah. Yeah. I actually had somebody ask me about this recently. Somebody mentioned, you know, I got this dream job offer and I feel like I need to be there for the people at my current job. And I... I said to them, you know, quite honestly, your first responsibility, in my opinion, is to be there for you because nobody else is going to, you know, nobody is going to care about you for as long as you care about you or as deeply as you care about you. And that's... That is a responsibility. Taking care of yourself is important. And it's not about being selfish. It's not about... It's not about any of those things. It's about understanding that it is... It is in... The ball is in your court, right? So don't let anybody push you around in either direction. Don't let us. Don't let me or Chris push you around for that matter. But certainly don't feel like you have to leave just because, you know, the opportunity presents itself to leave. Chris, I'm going to ask you one more question. And it's a question that I like to ask all the guests that come on Developer Tea as long as I remember to ask them. And that question is, what do you wish more people would ask you? What would you ask them about? That is a very good question. I wish I had a really good answer for that. I have no idea what they would ask me about. Like, would be... What kind of... Like, how to make a great conference? I don't know. How would... How do I get so tall? How do I write so many books? I would ask people, how can I help them be better at what they do? Yeah. Or help them be better for XYZ. Because I feel like my talents... One of my talents... One of my talents that I love is being able to take something that someone else has built and make it better. And say, like, here's some constructive criticism on how we can make this really a more interesting piece or, you know, presentation or whatnot. So if someone can ask me, like, hey, Chris, what do you think of this? Yeah, that's great. I think that's a really valuable thing. You know, we always ask people this question because it strips... It strips away... It typically ends up stripping away some of the technical discussions and it gets to the underlying motivations that drive people. Some people will say that they wish that people would ask them to tell more stories about their experiences. And that's surprising coming from a developer sometimes. Because if you hear that from a developer, that's kind of, you know, a lot of people, I think, assume that developers have a perspective of the world that's more logically constructed or, you know, doesn't have space for that. But that's not necessarily true. So it's always interesting, I think, to explore that question because it really lends some insight to who you are as a person. Chris, this has been a very interesting interview. If you are listening to this episode and you did not hear the first part of the interview, I highly encourage that you go back and listen to that. But before you do that, go and subscribe to Chris's show, Non-Breaking Space. This is actually one of the podcasts that inspired me to start podcasting. It was one of the very first podcasts that I ever listened to about web development. So it was a very good show. You can find that. I assume, Chris, the best place to find it is iTunes. But what are other places that people can find you? You find it... It's at nonbreakingspace.tv. Twitter is Teleject, T-E-L-E-J-E-C-T. And then I'm pretty much Teleject everywhere. I forgot to add to Facebook or whatnot. And then I think chrisserschmidt.com is my much neglected website. And we will definitely include all those links in the show notes, which people can find at spec.fm along with all the other show notes. From every other episode of Developer Tea. Chris, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. And thank you for listening to Developer Tea. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure you subscribe to the show in whatever podcasting app that you use and rate the show in iTunes. That helps other developers just like you find Developer Tea. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, enjoy your tea. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.